We're all guilty of tagging brands and locations in our social posts (even if it's done for ironic effect). And as brands get savvier at honing in on all levels of potential influence for branded collaborations, it can seem like social media is less a social platform - and more a sales catalogue.

Chris Henry recently launched People of Influence, a social talent division of 818 Publicity that facilitates branded campaigns with people who would have arguably had influence even without social media. He tells us why he decided to launch People of Influence, how the media landscape has shifted and why the ethos of the business centres around the idea of doing less for longer.

Topics include how branded partnerships work, #'authenticity', transparency, the difference between influencers and celebrities, user and influencer responsibility and more.

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Find out more about Chris Henry, 818 Publicity and People of Influence (Instagram) 

Transcription:

Lucy O’Connor (intro): When you hear the word ‘influencer,’ does it sort of make you cringe? Do you imagine a life of little work and all play? Do you immediately imagine a thin, white woman standing on her tippy toes in the sand with the last rays of sunshine dazzling against her perfectly bronzed skin as she pouts her lips and holds a sustainable glass bottle of ethically sourced, purely treated coconut water in her left hand with the brand of her bikini tagged in the image for good measure? Same! 

Ooh, was that a tinge of jealousy? The word ‘influencer’ has sort of become a dirty one. It’s often used interchangeably as a code word for privilege, entitlement, narcissism or the demise of the entire millennial generation. But, when you break it down, the term ‘influencer’ is nothing new. It’s the landscape that’s changed. 

Influencer marketing is to promote a product or a service by leveraging the platform or outlook of someone with an audience. Someone with a stage or someone with some sort of following. Before social media people with influence might have just been called different things. Celebrities, activists, business people sports stars, TV personalities, academics. 

Recently the pope himself tweeted that the Virgin Mary was our very first influencer. I think we need a whole podcast to break that one down! Today the differences that almost anyone, including your unborn child or pet cactus can be in the playing field of having a platform that has the potential to influence. On social media we exist in a sea of branded content, from celebrities to influencers, to friends who just tag products and locations and images without a real reason, all exist on the same platform. 

To be engaged with product promotion or a branded sponsorship used to be a status symbol that was restricted to the elite. And for the everyday person, exposure to branded content would end when we left a mall, turned off the TV or closed a magazine. But products integrate into our everyday lives by everyday people on everyday platforms. Whenever we publish an image of us and tag a brand, we are operating in the realm of influence with our audiences made up of 17 friends from high school or thousands of random people who are interested in cats, or misogyny or whatever you’re into. 

Contrary to popular belief, while having an exorbitantly large following used to be a requirement to be taken seriously as an influencer, today companies will try to tell clients that there are a whole raft of different segments of influencers with varying following accounts that suit different agendas. 

Mega influencers, macro influencers, micro, advocates, referrers, loyalists, I mean technically anyone with one follower, an Instagram profile and an opinion could be leveraged as an influencer. Like a lot of things to do with social media, the brand partnership space is kind of murky. But some people who operate in this space have felt the need to draw a distinction between social media users who have influence and people who would have had influence even without social media. 

Chris Henry is the founder and managing director of 818 Publicity. Recently Chris added a new branch to his business called People of Influence. A talent agency that facilitates branded campaigns on social media, but represents people who are respected or talented in a field that’s separate to social media. 

I wanted to sit down with Chris to learn more about the business of brand partnerships, explore the ethos of people of influence and get his take on how everyday people can navigate the sea of branded content. 

Lucy (conversation begins): Chris Henry, welcome to the podcast, thanks for joining us today. 

Chris Henry: Thank you for having me, it’s very exciting. I think it sounds awesome and I’m pleased to be part of it, so thank you for having me. 

Lucy: Of course. Chris, in your own words would you mind explaining to us what you think the difference is between an influencer and someone who has true influence? 

Chris: From my perspective it kind of came back to when I very first, we’re working with a whole bunch of the talent that have been part of the films and TV shows, that we work on in the publicity part of the business, they are smart and intelligent people. And when they talk about films, the films and the TV shows that they’re on in the media, it influences people to go along and see those films or to watch those TV shows, or to go to those shows. And that level of interest that people have in it, I think makes them influential. 

I think that somebody that has influence is somebody that people stop and listen to and that’s something that I think is important in that space. Especially if you’re going to be entering an engagement with a brand, where they’re paying money, then it needs to be in a place where people are smart and onto it and actually people do care about, that produce other types of content, apart from paid campaigns. Their social media channels are full of their lives and their interests and then the brand campaign is kind of part of that. 

Lucy: Is there a difference between celebrity and true influence? 

Chris: In a social sense, I don’t think so. I think that those that have influence can come from any walks of life. So our kind of criteria working with people is that they have to have some level of knowledge through their audience outside of the internet. So they have to be somebody that has done something else or does something else, whether that happens to be in the sports place or the comedy space, or in the film space, the TV space, but also that could be in the impact space. 

Like I think that people that are working in, that are impact leaders in our communities, I think that they have the opportunity to be part of that, because essentially people care about what they have to say and that’s kind of where it comes from. I think that the level of celebrity that goes with it is a plus because that’s where people, where people are coming to them because they’re interested in that. 

Because they do see them on TV and that sort of stuff, but I think that their social audience also kind of gives them, gives their audience a bit of insight into what they’re up to. I mean essentially they are providing a performance part of their life, but via the internet. And I think the influence is that, especially lifestyle influencers, they’ve totally got a place in the market. People do care about what they have to say, but if you do that for a job, then it’s practically impossible that you can have a genuine cash-in or care or belief in all the things that you do, from a brand partnership perspective because there’s just not enough brands in the world. 

So I think from the people that we work with, we want to try and do things that make genuine sense in their life and so therefore they can do it less often and for longer periods of time. So that’s why it makes a bit more sense. 

Lucy: How does a brand partnership work? What are the mechanisms behind the things that we’re so used to seeing on our social media feeds? 

Chris: From how we operate it’s kind of two-fold. One is the reactive, which is obviously we’re a brand who knows that one of our talent enjoys, or is in the world that would appreciate their product. Then they come to us and we work with the talent on deciding whether they are actually into or use or a part of, and then we can create kind of a narrative arc that goes around that. That kind of means that the audience, or the talents audience gets delivered that message in a way that makes sense to what they would normally do and it’s fun and it’s interesting and kind of makes sense. 

The other way that we do it is that we do proactive partnerships. Where we essentially look at the brands that our talent are using, or have in their lives and then try and reach out to those brands to work with them, so that makes it kind of even more ‘authentic.’ And I use my quotation marks because I just wish that there were better words that hadn’t been sort of taken over by the rest of the industry, like ‘authentic’ and ‘genuine.’

But unfortunately that is kind of the truth, like they need to be authentic and real and I think that anyone that is working in this space they need to stick to that because if they don’t stick to that, that’s when the idea of influence kind of goes out the window because it doesn’t make sense. 

Lucy: I want to look back on a couple of words that you used, ‘genuine’ and ‘authentic.’ And I’d be very interested to hear your definition behind what those words really mean? 

Chris: A hundred percent, authentic is a word that has become so prominent in our vernacular. I mean I think authentic is real. It’s doing things that make sense, that are right, that are truthful, that are honest, and that’s where the authenticness comes from. And I think one thing that’s really important to know, is I think that as we’re kind of moving into this world with brand partnerships that happen across social media. There’s no reason and there’s no requirement in this day and age for those to seem like they are not paid. 

We don’t want our audience, our talent who are working to be hoodwinking their audience to think this is like something that is not part of a paid campaign because that’s fine. We’re allowed to earn money and the people that we work with are very much led to earn money. They might work three or four times a year on great, big things and that’s the only time of the year that they get paid. 

So they should be able to use that influence all year round. It’s just about making sure that when it comes out, it is in a way that makes sense and is entertaining so that that person’s audience isn’t bored by the message or annoyed by the message, but it’s okay for it to be paid. And so by kind of working with our guys in terms of using that as a lens, having a cool idea or something that’s fun and interesting to do, but also making sure that it looks real and honest, through saying that you’re partnering with someone, or you know, I’m in a co-lab with these people, then that’s a way that we kind of help push the authenticity. 

Lucy: So, from what you’re saying it’s kind of like you can manufacture the look and feel of authenticity and it’s also transparency is a really big thing. And going hey, just so you know, this is a paid thing, yeah, I hope you’re okay with that, almost, all cards on the table. 

Chris: All cards, totally, all cards on the table is a great way of reflecting back to authenticity. And that’s got to be okay as we move through life, you know. We watch TV commercials; we know that they’re paid for. We watch people voice radio commercials; we know that they’re paid for. It’s just a new way of working and I think that maybe across the years it’s sort of been kept a bit secret, about how that side of things work. 

And I think that it’s fine, in 2019/2020 for us to be able to turn around and go, this is part of the media market now and we’re all part of it and that’s cool. Look at how the online world is working at the moment. It’s almost like it’s kind of gone the other way where now if someone really genuinely likes something, a celebrity or someone posts something on their social media, they often will, if it’s not part of a paid partnership, they’ll often really, carefully explain to people, no, this is not a paid post. I really like this. 

And that’s cool too, but yeah, as I say, I think audiences are becoming cooler with the idea or the feeling that this is part of it, as long as it’s done in a way that is smart. And it’s not detrimental or you know, that you’re not promoting something that’s going to hurt people or not be good for people. Obviously we’ve got some pretty good rules these days about smoking and all that sort of stuff, in terms of not being able to do it, but we might find going further along the lines that the idea of fast food and that sort of stuff might become something also has rules that affect both mainstream media and broadcast outlets and the social space. 

Lucy (thinks aloud): For me the debate of #authenticity quickly becomes kind of philosophical. Can something that is deliberately manufactured for the optimal look and feel of authenticity on social media ever really truly be authentic? Whether it’s something that’s paid or not? And does saying that you are paid to post something make posting a piece of branded content any more or less authentic? Without getting too tied up with the definition of words, this demand for #authenticity and transparency got me thinking about the nature of social media platforms themselves. 

The fact that everyday users feel hoodwinked by influencers, or people who are celebrities because of Instagram, might be because when we scroll through social media the people we follow feel so close to us. Their life feels relatable. Their friendship feels attainable. So when we realise that they’re manufacturing this stuff and getting paid to make product integration as seamless as possible, no wonder we feel ripped off. 

We start to distrust people’s motivations. People who we kind of consider friends, it would be weird if you invited a friend over for dinner, started to have a deep and meaningful in your living room and for the first time you felt like someone really got you. That they could relate to you, that their life was connected to yours in a way that you’ve never felt before. 

But then they turn around and try and sell you a bottle of gin and then we know that friend has to make a living but we kind of wish that we weren’t the target for that. So does knowing when we are being targeted make it any better? I don’t know [laughs]. And sometimes the product or service that’s being promoted by our favourite influencer or celebrity is genuinely so helpful to our lives. 

We know that actors and sports stars are paid to endorse products. We’ve known that for a long time. And because Chris Henry works in the entertainment PR space as well, it totally makes sense for him to represent actors or sports people and help them leverage their social media platforms financially so that they can continue to make a living and continue to build an audience. 

As I alluded to in the introduction, I think what’s weird is that we all exist on the same platforms now. That technically anyone could have influence on social media, whether they’re known for their acting role in Hollywood or they just like to take videos of themselves cleaning to rap music. But what is weird is how social media platforms have blurred the lines and made paid sponsorship life in and of itself aspirational. 

Chris: I don’t have the stats in front of me, so I might be making up this particularly works. But I’m pretty sure that I read recently that the number one thing that kids want to be in America is to be a YouTuber. People don’t want to necessarily be an astronaut or a fireman or a police officer, or a lawyer; they want to be a YouTuber. That’s become the job that you want to do when you’re growing up. That’s just how it goes. 

I mean if you look back at the, I don’t even know how far you’d want to go back, even 10 years, you know, there are so many different paths to success. I studied radio when I first came out of university and, I also went to university and I wanted to be part of the radio industry, whether that was on air or off air. By the time I came out of my degree, it became quite clear that if you wanted to have a prime time radio job, the easiest way to get that prime time radio job was to come from TV. 

Back in the day that was that you came from TV from being a weather presenter or being a news broadcaster or a TV presenter. Now you go straight into a life based reality show, fight for a man over 12 weeks and then become a radio host somewhere. That’s kind of the career path of it. 

It’s an easy way to the top and social media adds to that. You know, no one is going to hire somebody in a high profile radio job if they don’t have a level of social media presence, you know. It even gets down to casting a film, what sort of marketing tool have they got? Oh, well they’ve got 100,000 followers on Instagram, they’re going to be able to promote the film via those channels and their audience really cares about them, then they’ve got a better shot at it. 

It’s arguable about whether that’s better or worse but that is now the world that we are living in. 

Lucy: Yeah, you bring up an interesting memory of mine because I quit my job, what, six years ago and started Monday Hustle as a brand. And at the time I kind of, I guess I was coming to the realisation that to get anywhere in the spaces that I wanted to be in, I would have to have an online presence or I would not be considered. And that was a terrifying concept for me because I mean, you know, I’m a proud Luddite and [laughs] I’ve been on social media, but I resisted it, you know, for a long time. 

And so when I launched Monday Hustle, everybody was confused. Everyone in my life who knew me already was like, what the hell are you up to? But I guess I just had this innate understanding that unless I, you know, committed to that and occupied that space as well as the presence and the things that I bring in real life, then I wouldn’t have a chance. 

Chris: I’m sure there are people that don’t particularly want that level of presence and I think there are definitely talent that kind of live in that space that find ways of doing it. I met with a talent recently who, the idea of social media in terms of the feedback and things really terrified her. And so she would, you know, share content throughout her life that she needed for social media. She would literally download the Instagram app, she’d post the image, she would make sure it was sent and then she would delete the app again. 

And then that was just how she did it. So she didn’t exist in the communication side of it, but she still had a presence there and that’s how she found her happy balance. And I think it’s kind of, depending on what you, how you want to play it and how much you can detach yourself or engage yourself with it, depends on what your approach is. 

I mean I know my personal social media presence, I’ve really enjoyed being on social media. I’m guilty as everyone about perhaps spending too much time on it, but I also feel like that is my choice. And if I really cared enough about it, then I would do something about it and take my time back. 

But I also can see the amazing benefits of it. I’ve met amazing people through social media; it creates a really great scrapbook for my life, which really helps from a business perspective in terms of people being able to see kind of the stuff that we get up to, work-wise. So I haven’t necessarily had a bad experience through social media. So maybe I’ve got rose-tinted glasses on it. But I think that by treating it as what it is, this is a tool, or a lifestyle tool, or something that you just want to keep in touch with your mates about. Then you’ve just got to go down the path that’s right for you. 

And also I think that I have definitely a warped view on it in a way because I understand it a lot from a work perspective, you know? If we’re having a work event, it’s part of the brief of what we’re doing. Right, who is doing socials, who is videoing this, who is videoing that, who is uploading this. And then at the end of the night, right, what specific content that I’m going to put out on my personal channels that’s going to reflect back on this night from a work perspective so that people can see through the wider networks, the whole 360 of how it came together. 

So I don’t know whether I have a clear enough understanding of what that would be like for people that don’t require it as part of their job. I just think I feel quite lucky that because I require it as part of my job, that I am happy to be part of it. 

Lucy (thinks aloud): I have to admit, when I first started Monday Hustle, I barely know what a PR company did. But somewhere along the way, free stuff started turning up on my doorstep. I started to get invited to events and sometimes people would pay me to post stuff. I was doing Monday Hustle anyway, so all of that felt like a real bonus. I imagine that the rise of influencer marketing was a dream for some PR companies. 

Now you didn’t have to go through celebrity agents or media outlets to get exposure or hit ROI’s, or at least you didn’t have to do that exclusively. Now a PR company might stumble over Lucy from Wellington who has 5,000 followers on Instagram, a humble number, but still a number. And those followers are probably pretty loyal. You could message Lucy from Wellington directly on Instagram, give her some compliments, ask her for her personal address and send her an irresistibly ‘Gram-able package that was entirely personalised to her. 

Because Lucy is someone who has been socialised to believe that being sent free stuff gives her audience the perception that she is successful, and she feels like she’s getting the celebrity treatment, Lucy posts a story of her opening the cute pink box that was filled with silver glitter, confetti and the newest range of cleanser by a random new beauty brand here and the PR company can report on having increased numbers on their clients website by the morning. 

In episode one, Kaila Tova talks about the dangers of thinking of ourselves as commoditise-able branded content. All of a sudden we start thinking in branded language and can become hyper vigilant about how we act, what we eat or what we choose to post and not to post. A spontaneous trip to McDonalds becomes a question of, do I post an image of my cheese burger and 10 pack of nuggies, is that on brand? Our actual lives start to be shaped by the borders and brand guidelines of our online identities. 

And when a brand or PR company come along and say, “You look like you’re someone who enjoys a cheese burger; you want some money to post an image of you having a cheese burger?” Of course you’re going to find a way to integrate that into your online brand identity. I definitely didn’t understand the power that those brands had over shaping my online identity and therefore the way I showed up in real life. 

Lucy (back to conversation): I didn’t understand, at least initially, the potential impact that branded content would have for the person on the other side of the screen. We’re all showing up as brands these days, for better or for worse, when we occupy a space on the internet and we showcase our lifestyle. We’re all slowly becoming branded content, I think [laughs]. So how does someone understand that they have such power and such true influence when it is tied to an advertising agenda?

Chris: That’s a really good question. I mean the age old thing; you’ve kind of got to rely on common sense. I suppose to kind of throw the PR spin on it, I suppose that’s kind of where we come into the equation by making sure that we’re the sense checkers of what’s going on. And I’ve got a good example of that. When we first started the business we started working with the talent and we talked to this talent about the campaigns that they’d done in the past. 

And one of the campaigns they’d done, they had promoted a product, but they couldn’t eat the product because they were celiac. And we sort of alluded that person to the company, the idea of it, like he realised why this wouldn’t make sense. I mean they obviously understood it very quickly but sort of was so new to the idea of it they didn’t really realise that that would be something that they could decide not to do, or they could do it in a different way. 

So I think as we kind of go through it, especially in that silly pretty world, or the people of the influencer world, there will be people there who have their checks and balances in place. How that all works for people that are out there hustling on their own, I don’t completely know. It will rely on common sense and as we all know from society, not everyone has common sense, but hopefully, like in all good things; common sense will prevail in the end. 

Lucy: Absolutely, yeah, again going back to when I first started Monday Hustle, my first client for a branded partnership was McDonalds and I remember going, oh my gosh, you know, and I did have some thoughts around, is this good for my brand, is this good for, you know, the person that I am. And I decided to go ahead with it and I created like, you know, looking back, I was like nice piece of content Lucy, that’s really good. 

But it was the money that drove me, I have to be honest because you know, when you are out hustling on your own and you’re online and you’re hustling in other areas, but you have an opportunity to make money, of course you’re going to jump at it. And also, when a reputable brand, McDonalds, for better or for worse, comes to you and says, “Hey, we want to leverage your channel,” that’s what they’re implying. Again, the PR spin, “We think you’re so cool and your audience is so great and we’d love to give you some free burgers and some cash to just head along to McDonalds.”

It’s very enticing. So again, that authentic lens becomes very murky because the people that you represent, they’re in the industry, they get it. They’re behind the scenes of entertainment, of events and all these different things where products are involved, where partnerships are involved. They’re used to the language and it makes sense to them in ways that it may not make sense to someone who is just glorifying the space and thinking to themselves, man, wouldn’t it be cool if I could get free concert tickets, or things posted to my door. And you know, it’s exciting, it’s so cool. Someone is noticing you. 

Chris: Definitely. I think one way that it may end up working is it might end up becoming a sort of survival of the fittest and those that are not doing it in a way that is the right way of doing it, the audiences are cottoning onto, which is the idea of, you know, it needs to fit and makes sense and all of that sort of stuff. Then perhaps they won’t be the people that the brands want to go to in the future. It is hard because the more newer the people are at the game, the more impact that brands can have or the cheaper price that they can kind of get things for and that sort of stuff. 

And that will always happen, but I suppose if the audiences grow bigger and bigger, they’re only going to grow bigger for the people that are doing it right. And the idea of the authenticity of doing things that make sense to you and kind of work is so important, you know. In terms of the example that you said before, it’s definitely not to throw behind the curtain, but you know, you’ve enjoyed a burger or two in your time, you know. It’s probably just about the way [laughs] -

Lucy: One or two! [Laughter]

Chris: About the way that you would speak about it, so that that would make sense to your audience. And as we go further on the track, you know, be able to talk about the fact that it’s paid and sponsored, rather than it sort of being all glossy. Like hmm, my god, I’m going along to eat this burger and it’s so delicious and then I’m going to go straight to the swimming pool afterwards and lie in my bikini because that’s not how people enjoy burgers [laughs]. 

But doing it in a way that kind of like, also fits the brand of McDonalds, so you’re not necessarily turning around and saying, you know, I can’t wait to have this after a massive night, you know? But still finding a way where it can make sense, but also still work for your audience. I think that will work.

And the idea of the survival of the fittest, kind of going back to that, for longer term partnerships, brands will become smarter about not wanting to live in that space where it’s too glossy and too plastic, so to speak because that won’t end up converting back to those brands. And hopefully the brands will get smarter and also the other bit, and I’m kind of rambling in here, but I think as we grow as a peer group, you know, you and I both, I’m in my early 30s, as we kind of go up through the game, we’re going to be smarter about how this sort of stuff goes. 

And so therefore it might through natural attrition get smarter as everyone gets more senior and senior in those different jobs. I think we’re going to get better as time goes in terms of like being a bit more self-selecting about how we, about who we want to follow. I think people are getting a little bit better at not feeling like they’ve got to have, if somebody is in their social media circle, that they are not enjoying the content, whether they know them or don’t know them, then they’ve got the ability to tap out. 

And I think that hopefully the education, so the education that we have around the idea of social media will continue to do that, you know? I go in ebbs and flows in terms of wanting to follow beautiful shirtless men and then there’ll be times where I’m like, maybe they’re not making me feel that good. And so therefore some of them come out of the rotation and I become a little bit more into other bits. 

And I would encourage people that are perhaps feeling that social media is all glossy, and it is all glossy and I think that there is an element of that that’s okay. I don’t feel like I want to be on social media to hear the bad parts of people’s day. And I think that people are allowed to enjoy the positive in other people’s lives. But I hope the end user continues to be good, or gets better at being self-selecting in terms of how they participate in it. 

There’s no reason why your social media can’t just be meme accounts about cute cats doing funny tricks. Like if that’s what makes you happy, then pump up that content and get rid of pretty girls in their bikinis if that’s what doesn’t make you happy. I think the other thing that I found really powerful over social media recently is just understanding a few more of the tools of it. The idea of muting people’s stories, or muting people’s posts, you know, that’s a really great non-confrontational way of just stepping out of lives. 

And there are times when I do it myself and this is, you know, probably being a bit too personal, but you know. If there are people in my life who I have sort of, you know, had interest in or not interest in from a relationship perspective and then you’re not that into it, you know, trying to remove myself from that has been really helpful because you know, if someone is in your face all the time, if it’s an ex or if it’s somebody that just didn’t quite work out, you know, you don’t want to see all that stuff all the time. 

And then this is kind of coming to me as we’re talking, but maybe it is about that education of like, ways that you can be smarter on social media and you don’t have to follow the people that you don’t want to follow. If you don’t feel like you can unfollow them because of some sort of weirdly social political reason, mute them and then don’t look and see how that makes you feel.

Lucy: Yeah, I guess the other worry is that we’re exposing young people to this lifestyle, so explicitly. They’re exposed to it constantly from the start of the day to the very, very end. And I think the unintended consequences of how that shapes their world view and you know, to go back to your point about the YouTubers, their aspiration. I just, yeah, I don’t have the answers, but I’m very, very concerned about that generation. 

Even though fundamentally we know that it’s maybe not realistic, it’s not real, but still we find ourselves wanting and there’s that tension between people displaying that and displaying that it’s possible and having access to that all the time. And being, you know, having the self-control to switch it off. 

Chris: And I think you’re doing an amazing thing as part of that conversation though. You know, perhaps the audience that listens to this podcast, maybe they’ve got younger brothers or sisters, or cousins or that sort of stuff and maybe the social media industry or their consumption of it is growing to a stage where now it’s becoming our responsibility to say to our young cousins or something like that, like you know, say you’re at Christmas dinner and you’re watching your young cousin scroll through and it’s just beautiful person after beautiful person with white teeth and tiny waists. 

Maybe it’s about turning around to them and being like, you realise that they’re not real don’t you? Or like, how does that make you feel when you see them? You’re like argh, well, why don’t you unfollow them, or why don’t you mute them? It is something that we can do and I think that I admire you looking, you making a podcast like this because essentially that’s going to pose those questions to people. 

And I think you’re worried that you don’t have the answers, but the answers really are starting the questions and the conversation because if people are not into it or it’s not making them feel good, then they need to talk about it and work out a plan and that’s through conversation. 

Our forefathers made commercials about, if you had a cold the best thing to do would be have a couple of bloody Pall Mall menthols, like you know, we wouldn’t do that these days [laughs]. Who knows what will happen in 10 years in terms of how we will, how smart we’ll be in terms of knowing what our influencers, not even from a content perspective, but from a marketing perspective. And I think that the current influencer market, I think has definitely got its place, is probably the best way that I would describe it. 

I think what we’re doing, I’m excited about, because I feel like it’s going to occupy new space and that’s obviously an area that excites me. And it excites me because I feel like it’s opened the doors to be part of this particular world, and stream of revenue, in complete honesty, to people that they don’t want to follow the path of what a typical lifestyle influencer would do. Which perhaps has got elements of, you know, consistent sharing of life and personal information, you know. 

I think that people will be able to put out a curated version of life and that be a piece of creativity or a piece of art versus it needing to be a diary of exactly what happened in your life that day. Only the fun bits of my life go on social media, but that doesn’t mean the bad bits don’t happen, but I’m also cool with that and I hope that the audience that participates in my online presence is cool with the fact that I just don’t want to show them the bad bits. 

Lucy: I think it’s hard to show the bad bits authentically and that’s why I kind of question whether it’s, whether authenticity is the right word for the good bits as well. Because whatever you put on social media is manufactured, it’s a thought out process, you know. Like you’ll consider an Instagram story before you hit ‘publish.’ It’s not like you’re going, oh, this is exactly now and this is how it looks perfectly in my existence, I wish you were all here. 

Chris: There are obviously people that do drunk scenes at concerts and I’ve definitely been guilty of that before. Where you wake up the next day and you’re like, was this plain content or was this just someone overly excited about sharing the moment. 

Lucy: Maybe that’s the most authentic content that we have at the moment, are the drunken, embarrassing [laughs] moments that we accidentally publish and would never do in our sober states. 

Chris: Absolutely, true authenticity, drunk singing at a concert!

Lucy: To take vaping as an example, I know that they really used influencers to push that agenda of getting people to start vaping at festivals and they did these crazy PR campaigns around vaping. Which, you know, I actually turned down some work to work with a vaping company because I just thought, well, it’s tough, you know, I don’t know what’s in it. I don’t know what it’s doing to people, no one really does. How is this something I get on board with?

But again, it was only because I had been on the road of thinking more broadly about the things that I promote and things that I influence and having an understanding of the industry that I was able to turn that away for a reason. So again, I guess what would your checks and balances be when it comes to working with brands, the ones that you take on board? Do you have any policy around that or do you have any criteria around the brands that you do choose to work with? 

Chris: Yeah, totally. We have a lot of criteria and the first criteria really is that obviously it has to make sense with the talent that it’s working with and their life. We have been approached from vaping companies around working with our talent and we just feel like it’s just not the right space to be in. And so therefore we haven’t passed it on to the talent that we work with. 

I think if it makes sense to a person’s life, then that’s probably the biggest check and balance that we have. A lot of the business that I run also relies on gut feel. If it doesn’t feel right or it feels a bit icky, don’t do it because your first feeling is usually the right feeling and sometimes you’ve just got to trust your heart in that space. But, in saying that, you know, obviously we’re working in a professional situation with professional talent and so therefore not putting them in harm’s way in terms of backlash for a campaign or something is obviously very important. 

And that’s not going to happen with everyone that’s in this business. You know, people that, the popularity have grown due to the attractiveness of them or the ability to take really nice photos, that’s got them a really good social media presence, they might not have that level of support. So it is hard to know what they would do in those scenarios. I hope that they just trust their gut feel on things that don’t feel right and don’t do them. But perhaps that’s just too much of a simplistic view. 

Or anyone that has a social media audience that, or a social media presence that has an audience, you are responsible for that audience, you know. You’re responsible for what you’re putting out and making sure that that doesn’t offend people or upset people, you know? Another prime example that I find has come into my life recently is through my friends who are having kids and starting that process of kind of being like, right, well, what’s my responsibility here around social media, your content around children. 

We’ve got a really good understanding in our group of friends in terms of how we play, you know. If you’ve got a cute photo with someone’s kids, you’ve got to go and see mum and dad and ask if you can post the photo. Mum and dad make the call about it and then it’s okay or not okay. And that was kind of a weird process at the beginning when that sort of came up and I was like, you know, here’s a beautiful photo of my best mates little girl that we’re hanging out and I’m like, am I allowed to post this? 

That level of responsibility is kind of, it’s been fascinating. And then for [** 0.35.03], the idea of not doing things that can hurt people or that are impressionable. I mean I know that the old detox teas and the weight loss lollipops, they’re kind of the go-to, but they are a perfect example of it. 

Lucy: Yeah, so maybe it comes back to a question of, you know, brand equity and how you want to be considered and paying a bit more of the long game might be, you know, a place to start. Think about rather than the short term wins, think about the long term reputation that you would like to have. And again, coming back to influencers as well, maybe you don’t get as many followers if you don’t, you know, #skinnytea or you don’t take the brand contract, maybe you lose a, however much money. But it’s playing the long game. 

Chris: Absolutely, I’m 100% behind that, that’s essentially the vision of what we’re trying to do. Do less, but do it for longer periods of time, make it make more sense. That’s a good education for all, and obviously our situation is different because these people that we’re working with are not requiring it for a food on the table perspective. 

Lucy: Chris Henry, do you have any other comments or questions? 

Chris: A lot of the things that you’ve said have been really interesting and you’ve given me a fair bit of food for thought, but I hope that kind of, I can use my position of what we’re trying to do in this space in a way that kind of reflects some of the issues and such that you’re bringing up. So that feels quite cool. 

Lucy: Awesome, well, back at you. I think that doing anything different in the space and taking a stand against certain things is really important and will make the ripple effect of that, will make other people think and will create a better digital space and a better digital experience for everyone. So yeah, I appreciate what you’re doing, looking forward to seeing it grow and shift and change and keep us in the loop. Thank you so much for your time. 

Chris: Thank you. 

Lucy (outro): How cool is Chris Henry? If you’d like to know more about 818 Publicity or People of Influence, I’ve left those details in the show notes. If this episode sparked any thoughts around our influencer landscape, feel free to get in touch with the show via email. Also, did you know that Selfie Reflective sends out a monthly newsletter that’s packed with extra articles, resources, think pieces and guest insights? You can find a link to sign up to this mailing list in the show notes too. 

I’d also like to give a shout out to Verity Johnson, who was able to put a lot of my thoughts into actual words with her article, ‘We’re all influencers now – And that’s scary.’ If you liked the show, don’t forget to rate, subscribe and review, that helps other people like you discover this podcast. Until next week, I’m Lucy O, thank you so much for listening.

This episode of Selfie Reflective was hosted, written and produced by me, Lucy O, final episode audio and quality control is all thanks to Tom Frankish. 

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